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    string(13108) "<!-- wp:acf/ihr-story-introblock {"id":"block_621cfa87b2eab","name":"acf/ihr-story-introblock","data":{"text":"Laura Nolan is a software engineer in Dublin, Ireland and a volunteer with the \u003ca href=\u0022https://www.stopkillerrobots.org\u0022\u003eStop Killer Robots\u003c/a\u003e coalition. She worked at Google for nine years as a staff site reliability engineer. In 2018, she walked out over Google’s involvement in Project Maven, a US military project to use AI to analyze drone surveillance footage.\u003cb\u003e\u003c/b\u003e","_text":"field_621cfe1f2ceab","font_color":"black","_font_color":"field_62044418c7d75","background_color":"grey","_background_color":"field_620441bac7d74","dropshadow":"none","_dropshadow":"field_6267f7f921c52","classname":"","_classname":"field_6204244253a3f","observer_id":"","_observer_id":"field_6204245b53a40","anchor_button_text":"","_anchor_button_text":"field_62b9b0d090a10","anchor_id":"","_anchor_id":"field_6204242753a3e"},"align":"","mode":"edit"} /-->

<!-- wp:acf/ihr-textblocks {"id":"block_62197bcf08855","name":"acf/ihr-textblocks","data":{"hide_page_title":"0","_hide_page_title":"field_62d294c9f62e2","textblocks_0_text":"This is an extended cut of the interview from\u003ca href=\u0022https://2022.internethealthreport.org/episodes/the-tech-we-wont-build/\u0022\u003e The Tech We Won’t Build\u003c/a\u003e that has been edited for ease of reading.","_textblocks_0_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_0_bottom_space":"1","_textblocks_0_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_1_text":"How did you first become aware of Project Maven?","_textblocks_1_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_1_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_1_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_2_text":"I was a software engineer at Google. It was late-2017 and I was a tech lead for my team, which was responsible for part of Google’s cloud infrastructure. Whenever I was in San Francisco, there was one particular technical lead that I always tried to meet up with. We had a one-to-one meeting one afternoon that was a pivotal half hour in my life. He told me, “There’s this very big project coming, and your team is going to have to be involved.”\r\n\r\nThat project turned out to be building these air gapped data centers, which would let the company process classified information. I said, “Why? This is going to be a very complex and expensive project.” And the answer I got was, “Well, it’s this thing, Project Maven….”\r\n\r\nI couldn't really talk about it to anyone in my life that was outside of Google. Other Googlers I would speak to, would just say “That’s weird, Laura, that can’t be happening. It can’t be that Google is analyzing drone videos so that the U S can kill people more efficiently.” We wouldn’t do that, surely.” But that was exactly what Google was doing.","_textblocks_2_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_2_bottom_space":"1","_textblocks_2_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_3_text":"What did you do about it?","_textblocks_3_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_3_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_3_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_4_text":"I talked about Project Maven, and the problems I thought it had, to pretty much every senior person I could. I wasn’t the only one; one of our researchers, \u003ca href=\u0022https://internethealthreport.org/2018/intelligent-machines-arent-always-right/\u0022\u003eMeredith Whittaker\u003c/a\u003e, did a bunch of organizing around this and wrote a very good \u003ca href=\u0022https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/04/google-ceo-drones-ai-war-surveillance\u0022\u003eopen letter\u003c/a\u003e that was published in The Guardian and The New York Times.\r\n\r\nSome employees supported it. Certainly a lot of the senior execs supported it. The narrative that was mostly coming from Google’s leadership was that it was sort of supporting the US troops. It has to be said that executives are not neutral in this, they are well compensated in stock and probably make the vast majority of their money that way.\r\n\r\nIt wasn’t only Maven, which was a \u003ca href=\u0022https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/06/google-plans-not-to-renew-its-contract-for-project-maven-a-controversial-pentagon-drone-ai-imaging-program/\u0022\u003erelatively small contract, at the time\u003c/a\u003e. Google was also bidding on this absolutely enormous contract called JEDI, the Joint Enterprise Defense Initiative, which I believe was \u003ca href=\u0022https://www.wired.com/story/3-years-maven-uproar-google-warms-pentagon/\u0022\u003ea $10 billion contract\u003c/a\u003e. I think that was really the prize that the executives were looking at.","_textblocks_4_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_4_bottom_space":"1","_textblocks_4_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_5_text":"What kind of surveillance are we talking about?","_textblocks_5_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_5_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_5_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_6_text":"Google was helping the US Department of Defense to automate widespread and pervasive surveillance. So we’re talking about every individual in a particular geographical area being tracked in close to real time with this system. It knows which buildings you go to, it knows who comes to your house, it knows who you’re connected to. They were talking about building a user interface where you’d be able to click on a house and it would show you a timeline of all the interactions that the inhabitants are having. That’s hugely intrusive, especially when we’re talking about areas where there is not an active war.\r\n\r\nThere’s a great report from 2012 [\u003ca href=\u0022https://chrgj.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Living-Under-Drones.pdf\u0022\u003eLiving Under Drones\u003c/a\u003e] on a surveilled area in Pakistan where people were afraid to send their children to school. When the drones were out, people were afraid to go to funerals or other community gatherings. There are real human rights aspects of this.","_textblocks_6_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_6_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_6_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_7_text":"What did Google’s leadership say at the time?","_textblocks_7_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_7_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_7_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_8_text":"Executives were under a lot of pressure from employees to justify why the company thought it was okay to do this work without telling them, so they came up with these \u003ca href=\u0022https://ai.google/principles\u0022\u003eAI principles\u003c/a\u003e that said, ‘We won’t develop AI weapons.’ But the weapon is the tip of the spear. Behind each use of weapons is a whole lot of surveillance and analysis, and that’s the part Google’s interested in.\r\n\r\nA section of the principles said, ‘We will not do surveillance projects that violate internationally accepted norms.’ But international norms about surveillance are whatever the \u003ca href=\u0022https://privacyinternational.org/learn/five-eyes\u0022\u003eFive Eyes\u003c/a\u003e countries want to do. There are no treaties or commonly accepted international rules. It’s a free for all where the powerful do what they want.\r\n\r\nIt was the last straw for me. The fact that they included such a broad range of surveillance projects underlined that Google was very much willing to do this sort of work, and I thought that I could probably speak about it more freely if I was outside of Google.","_textblocks_8_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_8_bottom_space":"1","_textblocks_8_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_9_text":"After leaving Google, you joined the \u003ca href=\u0022https://www.stopkillerrobots.org/\u0022\u003eStop Killer Robots\u003c/a\u003e coalition. What is that?","_textblocks_9_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_9_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_9_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_10_text":"After I spoke to The New York Times for \u003ca href=\u0022https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/07/technology/tech-workers-ask-censorship-surveillance.html\u0022\u003ea feature about Project Maven\u003c/a\u003e, the campaign Stop Killer Robots contacted me. And, when somebody says, “Do you want to come to the United Nations and talk about why AI weapons are bad?” you say, “Yes.”\r\n\r\nStop Killer Robots advocates for international legal instruments or regulation about so-called killer robots — weapons that are able to select targets and to use force without a specific human command. For instance, Turkey has a small drone that has facial recognition built in and is \u003ca href=\u0022https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/07/05/killer-flying-robots-drones-autonomous-ai-artificial-intelligence-facial-recognition-targets-turkey-libya/\u0022\u003ereputed to have autonomous features\u003c/a\u003e. So it’s entirely technically possible now to build hunter killer drones that can track people down based on facial recognition, which is really not accurate enough for that sort of thing.\r\n\r\nVia \u003ca href=\u0022https://www.un.org/disarmament/the-convention-on-certain-conventional-weapons/\u0022\u003eThe UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons\u003c/a\u003e (CCW), the campaign advocates for a preemptive ban on autonomous weapons, and for regulation to make sure that other weapons that have some form of autonomy are built and operated safely. People think that when you have one of these treaties, you have this static law and everyone obeys the rule. But international arms control and disarmament treaties are more complicated than that.\r\n\r\nI think it’s important to think about moral norms. Not everything has to be written in stone to be effective. Look at nuclear weapons: there is a very strong moral norm against their use even though a number of nation states have them. I hope that alongside the treaty, we can think about the moral drawbacks of AI weapons that target people.\r\n\r\nWe’re seeing the increased use of automated decision making systems in important and high consequence contexts. If we can’t agree that it’s a bad idea to automate the most high-risk decisions, then what hope do we have for AI systems for things like job applications and social welfare benefits? To me, autonomous weapons are a very important ethical problem in their own right \u003ci\u003eand\u003c/i\u003e the canary in the coal mine for all these other things.","_textblocks_10_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_10_bottom_space":"1","_textblocks_10_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_11_text":"\u003cb\u003eWhat advice do you have for developers and regulators based on your experience?\u003c/b\u003e","_textblocks_11_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_11_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_11_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_12_text":"As a developer, it’s entirely possible to work on systems without having a great idea of the big picture; you’re working on your own part of the puzzle and don’t necessarily know how it’s put together. This is why I advocate for more alarms, explicit rules, and laws. We need to start regulating autonomous weapons, surveillance, and privacy.\r\n\r\nThese ethical conversations are not well advanced. Particularly in the case of surveillance, they’re colored by this perception that these technologies add to security, due to a lack of discussion around the drawbacks.\r\n\r\nIt’s difficult to do, but I encourage developers to question what companies are doing and the potential ramifications of that work. Walking away from something that you don’t think is right is also a perfectly reasonable thing to do.\r\n\r\nNo one individual has the power to stop a large corporation from doing something that it wants to do. \u003ci\u003eI\u003c/i\u003e certainly don’t have that power. But I have the power to walk away and not contribute to it. I have the power to go outside and speak about it. It’s important that we all do what we can.\r\n\r\n\u003cstrong\u003ePortrait photo of Laura Nolan is by \u003ca href=\u0022http://hannahyoon.com\u0022\u003eHannah Yoon\u003c/a\u003e (CC-BY) 2022\u003c/strong\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003ci\u003eMozilla has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy of the statements made during the interview, but the words and opinions presented here are ascribed entirely to the interviewee.\u003c/i\u003e","_textblocks_12_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_12_bottom_space":"1","_textblocks_12_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks":["paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph"],"_textblocks":"field_62197599f3f4a","classname":"","_classname":"field_6204244253a3f","observer_id":"","_observer_id":"field_6204245b53a40","anchor_button_text":"","_anchor_button_text":"field_62b9b0d090a10","anchor_id":"","_anchor_id":"field_6204242753a3e"},"align":"","mode":"edit"} /-->"
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<!-- wp:acf/ihr-textblocks {"id":"block_62197bcf08855","name":"acf/ihr-textblocks","data":{"hide_page_title":"0","_hide_page_title":"field_62d294c9f62e2","textblocks_0_text":"This is an extended cut of the interview from\u003ca href=\u0022https://2022.internethealthreport.org/episodes/the-tech-we-wont-build/\u0022\u003e The Tech We Won’t Build\u003c/a\u003e that has been edited for ease of reading.\u003cb\u003e\r\n\u003c/b\u003e","_textblocks_0_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_0_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_0_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_1_text":"People often think of data as being neutral; when did you first come to understand data as a potential tool of oppression?","_textblocks_1_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_1_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_1_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_2_text":"I remember being in fourth grade taking the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test, or FCAT. And teachers at my predominantly Black, immigrant, Latinx school in my predominantly working-class neighborhood said that our FCAT scores were used to determine how many beds to include in future prison projects. That’s when I first understood that data is political; it’s weaponized and used to justify and facilitate political decisions.\r\n\r\nLater, people at a neighboring high school organized a peaceful protest in response to a vice principal putting a ninth grader in a headlock. Instead of hearing their protest, the school brought in SWAT teams. I knew that, in addition to protest, there were other ways to make our voices heard. So I joined \u003ca href=\u0022https://www.poweru.org/\u0022\u003ePower U Center Social Change\u003c/a\u003e and we surveyed 600+ Miami students about their experiences with suspensions and arrests in schools.\r\n\r\nWe spearheaded the implementation of restorative justice policies and practices and the phasing out of zero tolerance policies. If you look at the timeline of the \u003ca href=\u0022https://www.aclu.org/blog/smart-justice/mass-incarceration/how-1994-crime-bill-fed-mass-incarceration-crisis\u0022\u003eClinton crime bill\u003c/a\u003e and these war on drugs policies trickling into our school systems, you can see how our experience lined up; the data was a powerful way to reveal that history and push for change.","_textblocks_2_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_2_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_2_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_3_text":"Tell us about the \u003ca href=\u0022https://blog.d4bl.org/introducing-nomoredataweapons/\u0022\u003e#NoMoreDataWeapons\u003c/a\u003e campaign, which is part of your work at Data For Black Lives.","_textblocks_3_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_3_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_3_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_4_text":"The idea came out of conversations with folks like \u003ca href=\u0022https://twitter.com/samswey\u0022\u003eSamuel Sinyangwe\u003c/a\u003e — an amazing data scientist and activist who spearheaded the research around \u003ca href=\u0022https://policescorecard.org/\u0022\u003emapping police violence\u003c/a\u003e — and conversations I saw all over our hubs around defunding the police. In addition to making a demand for defunding the police, I wanted to narrow it down to say, “How do we push police departments to scale back on expensive, useless, and highly harmful technologies and data weapons?”\r\n\r\nData weapons exacerbate and magnify the already harmful, racist, and punitive carceral system that we’re living under. Instead of waiting until somebody is up for deportation or incarcerated, we’re finding a way to educate people \u003ci\u003enow\u003c/i\u003e.\r\n\r\nThe main goals of the project are to educate the public on what data weapons are, help shift the national narrative via documentation, and promote storytelling by Black communities and individuals who are directly impacted. We also want to inform policy innovation and  cultivate and support targeted campaigns that move forward policy concerning the use of data weapons. All of that is undergirded by the Data For Black Lives methodology, which centers reclaiming data and tools as we fight oppressive data uses.\r\n\r\nRight now, we’re working with an amazing team of volunteers from the Brown University computer science department to build a storytelling tool. Every day, we’re documenting information on uses of data weapons, ShotSpotter technology, stingrays, automated license plate readers, DNA databases, drone technology — the list goes on. But so much of the effort needs to also be in telling the stories and shifting the narrative. So we’re building a tool where people can anonymously and publicly share their experiences with data weapons.","_textblocks_4_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_4_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_4_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_5_text":"What is a data weapon, exactly?","_textblocks_5_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_5_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_5_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_6_text":"We define data weapons as any technological tool or application used to surveil and criminalize Black and Brown communities. For the purpose of this project, we’re focused on data weapons used by law enforcement. Some forms of credit scoring are also used as data weapons, in addition to some of the new tools we’re seeing around immigration. This includes larger networks and algorithms such as domain awareness systems, as well as real-time crime centers and infusion centers, which are often actual brick and mortar places that are the convergence of these technologies and their uses.","_textblocks_6_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_6_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_6_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_7_text":"Are there examples of data weapons currently being used around the world that concern you from a US perspective?","_textblocks_7_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_7_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_7_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_8_text":"We’re really excited about partnering with organizations in Palestine, Western Europe, and South America. Part of the reason for our international focus is that we believe in solidarity. But it’s also because a lot of these technologies are built the same, oftentimes by the same companies. Palestine has become a testing ground for data weapons. We saw in Ferguson and in the past, especially since the inception of the \u003ca href=\u0022https://www.aclu.org/news/criminal-law-reform/federal-militarization-of-law-enforcement-must-end\u0022\u003e1033 program —\u003c/a\u003e which provided local governments all over the country with funding for military equipment to use on civilians.","_textblocks_8_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_8_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_8_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_9_text":"Can you speak a bit about these companies?","_textblocks_9_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_9_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_9_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_10_text":"Our strategy is to focus on bigger companies like Facebook, Google, and Microsoft. But a lot of them are small companies that specialize in the creation of these niche, boutique data weapons. One company, Clearview AI, has pioneered facial recognition technology that — thanks to activism and research — has been exposed as harmful. They have a database of more than three billion images, many from social media applications.","_textblocks_10_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_10_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_10_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_11_text":"What data do you want to see created, and who should develop it?","_textblocks_11_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_11_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_11_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_12_text":"These past two years have shown that there needs to be an investment in preventative healthcare, housing, and education, and we need data that’s going to achieve \u003ci\u003ethose\u003c/i\u003e things rather than increase policing and surveillance.\r\n\r\nLaw enforcement has way more technology than anyone else. If folks at the health department were equipped in the same way, we would’ve had a way different response to COVID-19. In response to states not releasing information on how it was impacting folks, we developed an entire \u003ca href=\u0022https://d4bl.org/datasets/6-the-impact-of-covid-19-on-black-communities\u0022\u003ecodebase\u003c/a\u003e so people could run their own analysis and build their own tools.\r\n\r\nWe have an opportunity to use big data and machine learning to exponentially increase the capacity of directly impacted people and lead us to better understand deeply entrenched social issues. A lot of that looks like connecting scientists and activists.","_textblocks_12_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_12_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_12_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_13_text":"How do you navigate when to collect data about a community versus when the collection of data itself is the weapon?","_textblocks_13_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_13_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_13_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_14_text":"For us, it’s less about when to collect data about a community than about when people in the community identify a problem and data collection is a way to approach the problem. Data helps us understand an issue that wouldn’t be possible otherwise. It’s a powerful tool for accountability and to amplify the voices of those who traditionally wouldn’t be heard.\r\n\r\nFor example, in 2013, I worked on a breastfeeding campaign in Miami. At that time, Black babies were three times more likely than white babies to die before their first birthday. That disparity had remained the same for 50 years, even though infant mortality had decreased significantly nationally. Part of the reason we even started talking about mortality was that folks from our community — Black mothers, Latinx mothers, poor mothers — were having C-sections when they didn’t want them. We also realized that mothers who wanted to breastfeed were instead given formula.\r\n\r\nThat’s where we got the idea to create a scorecard for all the hospitals in Miami, Florida. We developed it by interviewing and surveying mothers all over the city, including a woman who experienced the death of her child in a hospital.\r\n\r\nWe took our findings to our local hospital CEO. We had been trying unsuccessfully to get a meeting, but once we collected the data and wrote the report, not only did the hospital take our meeting, but it couldn’t deny the data we collected. Officials adapted the specific policies that we identified and pushed for.","_textblocks_14_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_14_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_14_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_15_text":"What message do you have for researchers and data scientists working on projects using data on vulnerable communities?","_textblocks_15_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_15_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_15_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_16_text":"I would ask some questions: Who else should be at the table? Who are the people behind these numbers? Once people start asking themselves those questions, I think they are going to think differently.\r\n\r\nIt takes a lot of imagination and creativity to move out of the rigid definition of how data should be used, to think differently and reclaim it to make tools that are not oppressive. I think part of the problem of racism is that it’s a problem of imagination; we are so used to these rigid structures and ways of seeing things. That’s what stereotypes are, that’s what narratives are. But we have an opportunity with technology to break through that. I invite people to come to our next \u003ca href=\u0022https://d4bl.org/conferences/5-d4-bl-iii\u0022\u003eData For Black Lives conference\u003c/a\u003e, where we’ll have the folks who are building these tools and the folks who are directly impacted by the tools not only at the same table, but in conversation and in community. It’s extremely powerful. 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<!-- wp:acf/ihr-story-introblock {"id":"block_621cfa87b2eab","name":"acf/ihr-story-introblock","data":{"text":"Yves Moreau is a professor of engineering at the University of Leuven in Belgium doing research at the intersection between \u003ca href=\u0022https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=zWftTEUAAAAJ\u0026amp;hl=en\u0022\u003eartificial intelligence and genetics\u003c/a\u003e. As a concerned scientist, he is \u003ca href=\u0022http://yvesmoreau.net/\u0022\u003epushing back\u003c/a\u003e against the development of mass surveillance technology and abusive deployment of forensic DNA databases.","_text":"field_621cfe1f2ceab","font_color":"black","_font_color":"field_62044418c7d75","background_color":"grey","_background_color":"field_620441bac7d74","dropshadow":"none","_dropshadow":"field_6267f7f921c52","classname":"","_classname":"field_6204244253a3f","observer_id":"","_observer_id":"field_6204245b53a40","anchor_button_text":"","_anchor_button_text":"field_62b9b0d090a10","anchor_id":"","_anchor_id":"field_6204242753a3e"},"align":"","mode":"edit"} /-->

<!-- wp:acf/ihr-textblocks {"id":"block_62197bcf08855","name":"acf/ihr-textblocks","data":{"hide_page_title":"0","_hide_page_title":"field_62d294c9f62e2","textblocks_0_text":"\u003cem\u003eThis is an extended cut of the interview from\u003ca href=\u0022https://2022.internethealthreport.org/episodes/the-tech-we-wont-build/\u0022\u003e The Tech We Won’t Build\u003c/a\u003e that has been edited for ease of reading.\u003c/em\u003e\u003cb\u003e\r\n\u003c/b\u003e","_textblocks_0_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_0_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_0_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_1_text":"Could you tell us about your work?","_textblocks_1_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_1_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_1_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_2_text":"A lot of my work has been focused on DNA databases. The kind of databases that are used by law enforcement across the world. Particularly in China, we do see abuse of that technology, in the form of mass surveillance and facial recognition. I became interested not just in facial recognition, but \u003ci\u003eethnic\u003c/i\u003e facial recognition.\r\n\r\nOne day, I came across a Twitter storm about a research paper on facial recognition to identify Uyghurs [a persecuted ethnic group in China]. People had written to the editor of the scientific journal where it was published, but received a pretty dismissive answer that it had been peer reviewed. I'm quite familiar with the academic publishing process and the ethics requirements. When I saw the response, I said, \u0022Well no, this doesn't really quite answer the complaints.\u0022 I reached out to a close contact, \u003ca href=\u0022https://techinquiry.org/\u0022\u003eJack Poulson\u003c/a\u003e, and together we wrote a letter to the editor and to the publisher.\r\n\r\nThere are actually products from several Chinese suppliers on the market that say they can tag people in video feeds based on their ethnicity. In particular, Uyghurs. So you can't say, \u0022Well technology can be used for different things, the authors don't have ill intent.\u0022 The dangers are quite obvious, so you should take that into account. Hundreds of thousands of people have been sent to forced labor camps in Xinjiang in China. There is facial recognition everywhere. There is tracking of individuals, and of their behavior.","_textblocks_2_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_2_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_2_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_3_text":"How often have you succeeded in getting papers retracted?","_textblocks_3_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_3_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_3_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_4_text":"So far, there have been eight retractions (seven on DNA profiling and one on ethnic facial recognition) and I have requested ethical investigations of around 60 articles at a dozen different journals. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg.","_textblocks_4_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_4_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_4_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_5_text":"What should scientists consider when they review biometric research?","_textblocks_5_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_5_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_5_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_6_text":"First, everybody should clearly understand that whenever you're doing any kind of biometric research – be it DNA, facial recognition, or fingerprinting – it \u003ci\u003eis\u003c/i\u003e human subject research. You need the appropriate consent and ethical reviews. There is a tendency for people to think, \u0022Well, it's just a bunch of pictures and data on the computer. I'm not doing research on human subjects.\u0022 I think computer scientists and engineers need to realize that when you do biometric research, you enable the development of extremely powerful tools that can severely impact people's lives. You need to reflect on the potential dangers of the technology you are developing.\r\n\r\nOne paper I was involved in retracting, was about predicting whether somebody is a criminal based on their face. I mean, what is it to be a criminal? It's a very complicated question. So, you take a dataset and you label people “criminal” or “not criminal” based on what? When we look at the science, it's usually quite poor. People who have a criminal record could be singled out for forever. Free inquiry is a core value of mine. But to say that scientists should be able to do whatever we want unencumbered, doesn't work. For biometric research today, the threats are so huge that we need to urgently reflect.\r\n\r\nScientists have a huge moral authority over what happens with our research, but we almost never use it. We invented it, we created it, we brought it to the world. We have a special right to talk about it.","_textblocks_6_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_6_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_6_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_7_text":"When did you start actively pushing back yourself?","_textblocks_7_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_7_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_7_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_8_text":"About a decade ago, I thought, \u0022I don’t just want to be a scientist writing technical research, I want to take up a role as an intellectual, to enter public debate.\u0022 I looked into where I could make meaningful contributions.\r\n\r\nI stumbled onto proposed legislation for a surveillance program in Kuwait that would create a national DNA database of the entire population. We were part of a successful effort to push back against that. I moved on to China to look into abuses of DNA databases there. Together with Human Rights Watch, we discovered this infrastructure being deployed in Xinjiang. Later I began looking into the issue of facial recognition and mass surveillance, which I think is the next battlefield for the shape of 21st century societies.","_textblocks_8_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_8_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_8_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_9_text":"What is your advice to computer scientists?","_textblocks_9_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_9_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_9_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_10_text":"Technology does not occur in a vacuum. It is not “morally neutral”. In physics, you had the nuclear bomb. In chemistry, you have chemical weapons. In medicine, you can do horrible things to people. All of these fields have reflected on this. In computer science, we don't have that culture of thinking about our impact on society. But tech people actually have quite an amazing superpower. They can stand up from their chair, and go to the door, and go look for another job. And when you calmly, politely explain there is a problem, it is actually quite frequent people will say, “Yeah, actually I think we do have a problem.”\r\n\r\nAs scientists closely affiliated with industry and business, there tends to be a strong focus on ‘big science’ that translates into industrial products with a large economic impact. Tech research has become amazingly productive, but in my opinion more disengaged from social issues.\r\n\r\nWhen I turned my attention to China, one of the very first things I said was, “Well, the role of US suppliers in selling these products to Chinese companies is really problematic.” And there was \u003ci\u003esome\u003c/i\u003e impact with international attention, but we haven't solved the problems.\r\n\r\nThe Dragonfly Project at Google was stopped because people were courageous. \u003ca href=\u0022https://theintercept.com/2018/12/01/google-china-censorship-human-rights/\u0022\u003eWhen Jack Poulson quit\u003c/a\u003e, others followed. Eventually Google changed course. We're talking about a billion-dollar opportunity. Same thing with \u003ca href=\u0022https://2022.internethealthreport.org/story/say-no-to-killer-robots-laura-nolan/\u0022\u003eProject Maven\u003c/a\u003e. A small number of people, or sometimes just one person, can have an impact. I feel incredibly lucky to have generated a discussion on all this. But together, we're stronger.\r\n\r\n\u003cstrong\u003ePortrait photo of Yves Moreau is by \u003ca href=\u0022http://hannahyoon.com\u0022 target=\u0022_blank\u0022 rel=\u0022external noopener noreferrer\u0022 data-wpel-link=\u0022external\u0022\u003eHannah Yoon\u003c/a\u003e (CC-BY) 2022\u003c/strong\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003ci\u003eMozilla has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy of the statements made during the interview, but the words and opinions presented here are ascribed entirely to the interviewee.\u003c/i\u003e","_textblocks_10_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_10_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_10_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks":["paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph"],"_textblocks":"field_62197599f3f4a","classname":"","_classname":"field_6204244253a3f","observer_id":"","_observer_id":"field_6204245b53a40","anchor_button_text":"","_anchor_button_text":"field_62b9b0d090a10","anchor_id":"","_anchor_id":"field_6204242753a3e"},"align":"","mode":"edit"} /-->"
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    string(10990) "<!-- wp:acf/ihr-story-introblock {"id":"block_621cfa87b2eab","name":"acf/ihr-story-introblock","data":{"text":"Shmyla Khan is the research and policy director at\u003ca href=\u0022https://digitalrightsfoundation.pk/\u0022\u003e Digital Rights Foundation\u003c/a\u003e in Pakistan. She is a lawyer by training and has worked as a lecturer teaching law, technology, and gender.","_text":"field_621cfe1f2ceab","font_color":"black","_font_color":"field_62044418c7d75","background_color":"grey","_background_color":"field_620441bac7d74","dropshadow":"none","_dropshadow":"field_6267f7f921c52","classname":"","_classname":"field_6204244253a3f","observer_id":"","_observer_id":"field_6204245b53a40","anchor_button_text":"","_anchor_button_text":"field_62b9b0d090a10","anchor_id":"","_anchor_id":"field_6204242753a3e"},"align":"","mode":"edit"} /-->

<!-- wp:acf/ihr-textblocks {"id":"block_62197bcf08855","name":"acf/ihr-textblocks","data":{"hide_page_title":"0","_hide_page_title":"field_62d294c9f62e2","textblocks_0_text":"This is an extended cut of the interview from\u003ca href=\u0022https://2022.internethealthreport.org/episodes/the-tech-we-wont-build/\u0022\u003e The Tech We Won’t Build\u003c/a\u003e that has been edited for ease of reading.","_textblocks_0_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_0_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_0_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_1_text":"If we’re talking about the tech that \u003ci\u003eshouldn’t\u003c/i\u003e be built, what’s the first thing that comes to mind for you?","_textblocks_1_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_1_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_1_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_2_text":"My colleagues and I are usually those people in the room, always sort of questioning why something needs to be built in the first place.\r\n\r\nFor people here in Pakistan and throughout the subcontinent, technology is often approached like a  silver bullet that’s going to fix problems that are actually much more complex. If we just build an app or a piece of technology, it’s not going to bypass these nuanced and more difficult questions based on history and social issues. I think that is the trap a lot of technology development has fallen into. Unless we're willing to grapple with those larger questions, we can't use technology as a shortcut.\r\n\r\nSome technologies are inherently dangerous, but then there are more indirect ways in which technology can be harmful because we attach more promises to it than it can possibly deliver. \u003cb\u003e\r\n\u003c/b\u003e","_textblocks_2_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_2_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_2_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_3_text":"What is it like to be on the receiving end of technologies by foreign superpowers?","_textblocks_3_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_3_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_3_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_4_text":"I think the relationship many of us have with technology is one-sided, especially in the Global South where a lot of the apps that we use, the devices that we use, have been built in other places, in other contexts. And that is a really important issue, because if that tech is not built with you in mind, or your needs in mind, then that is a sign that you're excluded from those conversations. We're outside that room where those conversations are happening, banging on the door, trying to get our voices heard.\r\n\r\nSo how do we fix this? Somehow we're supposed to come up with solutions, as an add-on to what they have built. It's always an afterthought. It also speaks to the fact that a lot of capital is concentrated in the Global North. That is where the technology is going to be built and designed. These crucial design decisions are made, and only later is the technology adapted to other contexts.","_textblocks_4_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_4_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_4_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_5_text":"What about surveillance and military use of technologies?","_textblocks_5_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_5_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_5_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_6_text":"In Pakistan, there's a lot of criticism around drone technology weaponry which has been politicized and is part of anti-US sentiment in the region. If you talk to people here about it they’ll probably give you a really articulate answer about why drones are bad. Whereas if you talk to the same people about AI or facial recognition, they may not know what you're talking about.\r\n\r\nThe first time I read about drones, I was just completely taken aback. It's such a clinical way of taking people's lives sitting halfway across the world. That there would be people sitting in parts of the US who feel like they were playing a video game in terrain they don’t really understand, executing these kill lists, was so jarring. It is presented as this very precise way of killing people. But there were so many horrendous reports of, for example, a wedding that was erroneously targeted, or of entire families killed because one person within a household was suspected to have links to terrorism.","_textblocks_6_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_6_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_6_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_7_text":"You have been critical of other applications of technology in the name of security. For instance, state sponsored mobile phone apps for women’s safety in Pakistan.","_textblocks_7_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_7_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_7_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_8_text":"These are apps that are asking women to give up all of their privacy in order to have some abstract promise of security from the state.\r\n\r\nThe essential message to women is that if you want security, then you will have to give up privacy, which is extremely problematic, but also indicative of how the state conceptualizes security itself. It is surrendering yourself to complete and total surveillance as a way of being granted that privilege of security.\r\n\r\nWomen are hesitant to go to the state for security for a number of reasons. The biggest misconception about violence against women or gender minorities is that they will be attacked in public places, by people they don't know, whereas we know that an overwhelming majority of violence happens either within the home, or by people you know, so these apps are completely ineffective in that sense.\r\n\r\nI know very few women in Pakistan who actually have these apps on their phone. I think it also speaks to the lack of understanding of what actual Pakistani women or people actually feel insecure about in public spaces, and their relationship to technology and the state.","_textblocks_8_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_8_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_8_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_9_text":"You work for an influential digital rights group in Pakistan. How would you like to see big tech collaborate with local groups?","_textblocks_9_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_9_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_9_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_10_text":"When you are going to include people in a conversation, I think you have to make sure that it's not just about ticking some boxes for diversity.\r\n\r\nOne of the main problems that I see with the consultations that \u003ci\u003edo\u003c/i\u003e happen in the Global South, is that companies will have this one-off conversation and then disappear. And then a year later they'll come back with something else, and they don’t have to answer for the fact that they didn't act on certain key recommendations or issues you raised. I think that’s the main frustration that myself and other colleagues in the region have raised over the years. That we don't just want to sit in a room and give you all our expertise, and then the companies and the people building this tech aren’t held to account. I think that's the really extractive relationship we've seen, even when voices \u003ci\u003eare\u003c/i\u003e included.","_textblocks_10_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_10_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_10_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks_11_text":"What are your thoughts on collaboration with policy makers?","_textblocks_11_text":"field_621e38d641532","textblocks_11_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_11_bottom_space":"field_62d29698c68a1","textblocks_12_text":"I think there's this eagerness to make a policy and hope that somehow that's going to fix things. We see that currently happening with data protection laws. There is no data protection law currently in Pakistan, but there's this larger global movement towards data protection laws, especially since the \u003ca href=\u0022https://2020.internethealthreport.org/slideshow-internet-health/#23\u0022\u003eGDPR was enforced in Europe\u003c/a\u003e. But there's this inability to accept that sometimes questions are very complex and we can't solve it with just \u003ci\u003eone\u003c/i\u003e policy. It might require much more structural interventions or maybe several policies. It's a very difficult position, to be in a room of policy-makers and tell them \u003ci\u003enot\u003c/i\u003e to make a policy, because then you'll get accused of not trying to find a solution. Or if you present any opposition to the data protection policy being offered, you are instantly branded as someone who's not interested in privacy.\r\n\r\nPolicy in and of itself is not the solution, nor an unqualified good outcome. In my context, I can see how we have been grappling with the after-effects of bad policymaking or incomplete policymaking, or policymaking that is not inclusive. This has more disastrous effects because especially when it comes to tech, a lot of these conversations are very complicated.\r\n\r\n\u003cstrong\u003ePortrait photo of Shmyla Khan is by \u003ca href=\u0022http://hannahyoon.com\u0022 target=\u0022_blank\u0022 rel=\u0022external noopener noreferrer\u0022 data-wpel-link=\u0022external\u0022\u003eHannah Yoon\u003c/a\u003e (CC-BY) 2022\u003c/strong\u003e\r\n\r\n\u003ci\u003eMozilla has taken reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy of the statements made during the interview, but the words and opinions presented here are ascribed entirely to the interviewee.\u003c/i\u003e","_textblocks_12_text":"field_621976bef3f4d","textblocks_12_bottom_space":"0","_textblocks_12_bottom_space":"field_621977a9f3f4f","textblocks":["paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph","headline","paragraph"],"_textblocks":"field_62197599f3f4a","classname":"","_classname":"field_6204244253a3f","observer_id":"","_observer_id":"field_6204245b53a40","anchor_button_text":"","_anchor_button_text":"field_62b9b0d090a10","anchor_id":"","_anchor_id":"field_6204242753a3e"},"align":"","mode":"edit"} /-->"
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